[OS X TeX] Re: MacOSX-TeX Digest, Vol 44, Issue 17

Fri Jun 24 16:01:51 EDT 2011

Hello everyone,

Since we are at this topic, I thought it will be a good idea to ask:

I am planning to get a new imac ( in july). My budget constraints encourage me to go for the basic 21.5 '; 2.5GHz quad-core Intel Core i5 with 6MB on-chip shared L3 cache; AMD Radeon HD 6750M graphics processor with 512MB of GDDR5 memory.  ( the most basic one)

My question is, if it is really worth the investment going for the 8GB RAM.

Is there a major difference between core i5 and i7?

Also, are there any (hidden) disadvantages of  apple wireless keyboard over apple numeric keyboard, for Texing/ programming over extended periods of time? 

It is relevant to mention that: I am a mathematician, so my main usage (apart from email, you tube etc) are lots of Texing, some occasional python, C, Mathematica, Matlab, SAGE programming (nothing heavy duty though).  

Thanks in advance,
Shom

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Subject: MacOSX-TeX Digest, Vol 44, Issue 17

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Today's Topics:

   1. New Laptop... (Herbert Schulz)
   2. Re: New Laptop... (François Chaplais)
   3. Re: New Laptop... (Alain Schremmer)
   4. Re: New Laptop... (Herbert Schulz)
   5. Re: New Laptop... (M. Tamer Özsu)
   6. Re: New Laptop... (Ralph Martin)
   7. Re: New Laptop... (George Gratzer)
   8. Re: New Laptop... (Peter Dyballa)
   9. Re: New Laptop... (Peter Dyballa)
  10. Re: New Laptop... (Ralph Martin)
  11. Re: New Laptop... (M. Tamer Özsu)
  12. Re: New Laptop... (Ralph Martin)
  13. Re: New Laptop... (M. Tamer Özsu)
  14. Re: New Laptop... (Alain Schremmer)
  15. Re: New Laptop... (Herbert Schulz)
  16. Re: New Laptop... (Alain Schremmer)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 08:18:29 -0500
From: Herbert Schulz <herbs at wideopenwest.com>
Subject: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: List TeX on Mac OS X Mailing <MacOSX-TeX at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <7B4B2E1C-37B0-4449-B4E0-10AB8387EA3E at wideopenwest.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Howdy,

I'm considering getting a new 15" MacBook Pro with the i7 Quad Core. I don't run huge numbers of apps simultaneously so I think 4GB of RAM is fine. The only question I have concerns my choice of the standard 750GB/5400RPM drive or to special order it with a 500GB/7200RPM drive. Will the higher data density make up for the extra latency in some way? Will I even notice the difference. No, I can't afford an SSD!

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:46:41 +0200
From: François Chaplais     <francois.chaplais at mines-paristech.fr>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <CE54CF1B-4733-47DE-9457-A844F0DE9CAC at mines-paristech.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I am very happy with a 7200 RPM drive. I do think it helps the system.
Best
    François
Le 24 juin 2011 à 15:18, Herbert Schulz a écrit :

> Howdy,
> 
> I'm considering getting a new 15" MacBook Pro with the i7 Quad Core. I don't run huge numbers of apps simultaneously so I think 4GB of RAM is fine. The only question I have concerns my choice of the standard 750GB/5400RPM drive or to special order it with a 500GB/7200RPM drive. Will the higher data density make up for the extra latency in some way? Will I even notice the difference. No, I can't afford an SSD!
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Herb Schulz
> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
> 
> 
> 
> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
> List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
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> List Info: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
> 

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 10:00:55 -0400
From: Alain Schremmer <schremmer.alain at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <EE31BA40-EB87-4269-9ADE-A733A7D0C098 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:

> I think 4GB of RAM is fine.

Ah the good old days!

(Of the 128K)

Best regards
--schremmer

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 09:06:01 -0500
From: Herbert Schulz <herbs at wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <9C9ACDD6-6FA3-4448-B892-347ABBF5954A at wideopenwest.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:

> On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
> 
>> I think 4GB of RAM is fine.
> 
> Ah the good old days!
> 
> (Of the 128K)
> 
> Best regards
> --schremmer

Howdy,

And the constant swapping of the floppies! :-P

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 10:13:48 -0400
From: "M. Tamer Özsu" <ozsut at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <E9CDB78C-4658-43F9-9069-F2AC1BB47576 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII

It will make a difference Herb, so I would recommend it. But you may also wish to consider increasing memory. These machines do not really exploit 64-bit  architecture until you get to 8GB memory (that is what I have in my 13" MacBook Pro). Also, there are cheaper SSD alternatives -- I have one from OWC (http://tinyurl.com/64lbfsc) installed in mine -- they also have better write lifetime characteristics. They may still be over your planned budget, but I thought I would bring it to your attention.

Best.

==Tamer

On 2011-06-24, at 9:18 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:

> Howdy,
> 
> I'm considering getting a new 15" MacBook Pro with the i7 Quad Core. I don't run huge numbers of apps simultaneously so I think 4GB of RAM is fine. The only question I have concerns my choice of the standard 750GB/5400RPM drive or to special order it with a 500GB/7200RPM drive. Will the higher data density make up for the extra latency in some way? Will I even notice the difference. No, I can't afford an SSD!
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Herb Schulz
> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
> 
> 
> 
> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
> List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
> List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
> TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
> List Info: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
> 

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:36:44 +0100
From: Ralph Martin <Ralph.Martin at cs.cardiff.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <0B64EECB-9B86-45FF-93E6-540B272F6453 at cs.cardiff.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Herb

On 24 Jun 2011, at 3:13:48PM, Herb wrote:
No, I can't afford an SSD!

Do whatever you can to put a cheap SSD in the machine. It makes a HUGE difference. E.g. when booting, spinning cogwheel with hard drive: 20 secs, with SSD: 3 seconds. 

Indeed, very seriously, it may be a significantly better option to keep your old laptop (as long as 64 bit Intel) and spend the money on an SSD for it, than to buy a new laptop again with an HD.

Best wishes

Ralph
--
Prof. Ralph Martin                          Phone: +44(0)29 2087 5536
Computer Science & Informatics             Fax:   +44(0)29 2087 4598
Cardiff University                   Email: mailto:ralph at cs.cf.ac.uk
5 The Parade, Roath                  WWW:  http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/
Cardiff, CF24 3AA, UK     VOIP: sip:17476235487 at proxy01.sipphone.com

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 09:55:53 -0500
From: George Gratzer <gratzer at me.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <60AB788C-2C6B-4AA9-A786-8F6EA0917957 at me.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Herb,

May I recommend the 13" MacBook Air? The screen has the same resolution, so hold it an inch closer and it is of the same size!

It is lighter and the SSD makes a huge difference. Incredibly speedy. A restart is measured is seconds. Makes a real difference.

I grant you that the Pro has a faster processor, but it is hard to imagine how that would benefit you. Certainly not with TeX.

My techi friends tell me to buy 8GB of RAM.

On the road, the MacBook Air is easier on you. If you archive a lot of stuff, put it on an external drive.

Good luck,

George

On 2011-06-24, at 8:18 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:

> Howdy,
> 
> I'm considering getting a new 15" MacBook Pro with the i7 Quad Core. I don't run huge numbers of apps simultaneously so I think 4GB of RAM is fine. The only question I have concerns my choice of the standard 750GB/5400RPM drive or to special order it with a 500GB/7200RPM drive. Will the higher data density make up for the extra latency in some way? Will I even notice the difference. No, I can't afford an SSD!
> 
> Good Luck,
> 
> Herb Schulz
> (herbs at wideopenwest dot com)
> 
> 
> 
> ----------- Please Consult the Following Before Posting -----------
> TeX FAQ: http://www.tex.ac.uk/faq
> List Reminders and Etiquette: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/
> List Archive: http://tug.org/pipermail/macostex-archives/
> TeX on Mac OS X Website: http://mactex-wiki.tug.org/
> List Info: http://email.esm.psu.edu/mailman/listinfo/macosx-tex
> 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:57:45 +0200
From: Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa at Web.DE>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <77FEDB80-02AA-4B59-B74F-D72ECE923F32 at Web.DE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed;
    delsp=yes

Am 24.06.2011 um 16:13 schrieb M. Tamer Özsu:

> there are cheaper SSD alternatives

This might be true. And it might be also true that these don't support  
the TRIM command (which Lion will use) and finally make the OS search  
endlessly for some left-over blocks in disk to save the large PDF  
output. (Ever encountered when your set-top box with disk recording  
reaches the state of almost no disk space left?)

I am also considering to buy a MacBook Pro. I tend to prefer the  
faster 500 GB disk – and 8 GB of RAM. Half the disk could be cached!  
No swapping virtually needed. (And these 4 GB RAM don't cost that  
much. Two TV instead of restaurant dinners.)

--
Greetings

   Pete

Some day we may discover how to make magnets that can point in any  
direction.

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:05:30 +0200
From: Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyballa at Web.DE>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <10509924-E87E-41F4-A23E-5E4DA5A19A19 at Web.DE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

Am 24.06.2011 um 16:36 schrieb Ralph Martin:

> Indeed, very seriously, it may be a significantly better option to  
> keep your old laptop (as long as 64 bit Intel) and spend the money  
> on an SSD for it, than to buy a new laptop again with an HD.

The best option is to wait until a Mac or a disk hits the market that  
offers both: a fast storage device and an even faster device for  
temporary storage that does not wear out like an SSD. That's the  
problem with today's SSD: they only allow to change (overwrite) a disk  
block a few thousand times. One TeX run can produce half a dozen files  
and use up a few dozens of disk blocks.

--
Greetings

   Pete

We have to expect it, otherwise we would be surprised.

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:33:08 +0100
From: Ralph Martin <Ralph.Martin at cs.cardiff.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <1574B0B3-0C77-46C0-AF4A-38A013EFD6EB at cs.cardiff.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 24 Jun 2011, at 3:57:45PM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
> This might be true. And it might be also true that these don't support the TRIM command (which Lion will use) and finally make the OS search endlessly for some left-over blocks in disk to save the large PDF output. (Ever encountered when your set-top box with disk recording reaches the state of almost no disk space left?)

I had a no-TRIM SSD. It worked fine, even when over 95% full, and regularly overwiting GBs data. (It did "garbage collection" in its spare time). However slow it gets, I'd be very suprised if it is still not much much faster than an HD. 

Best wishes

Ralph
--
Prof. Ralph Martin                          Phone: +44(0)29 2087 5536
Computer Science & Informatics             Fax:   +44(0)29 2087 4598
Cardiff University                   Email: mailto:ralph at cs.cf.ac.uk
5 The Parade, Roath                  WWW:  http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/
Cardiff, CF24 3AA, UK     VOIP: sip:17476235487 at proxy01.sipphone.com

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:35:20 -0400
From: "M. Tamer Özsu" <ozsut at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <496E3CF8-DE94-49F1-B023-06CA785C96E0 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

OWC has a 6GB version of the SSD that does support TRIM (although it is more expensive).

I have no relationship with OWC other than being a happy customer.

==Tamer

On 2011-06-24, at 10:57 AM, Peter Dyballa wrote:

> 
> Am 24.06.2011 um 16:13 schrieb M. Tamer Özsu:
> 
>> there are cheaper SSD alternatives
> 
> 
> This might be true. And it might be also true that these don't support the TRIM command (which Lion will use) and finally make the OS search endlessly for some left-over blocks in disk to save the large PDF output. (Ever encountered when your set-top box with disk recording reaches the state of almost no disk space left?)

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:39:39 +0100
From: Ralph Martin <Ralph.Martin at cs.cardiff.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <2502375A-7853-435D-ADAD-AF7431FF7EBC at cs.cardiff.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 24 Jun 2011, at 4:05:30PM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
> The best option is to wait until a Mac or a disk hits the market that offers both: a fast storage device and an even faster device for temporary storage that does not wear out like an SSD.
> That's the problem with today's SSD: they only allow to change (overwrite) a disk block a few thousand times.

You are way, way off beam. The Intel X25-M, as an example, has a mean time before failure of 1.2 million hours (more than 100 years).

There's a lot of FUD about SSDs. I've had SSD equipped Macs for several years now, and would never go back. 

Best wishes

Ralph
--
Prof. Ralph Martin                          Phone: +44(0)29 2087 5536
Computer Science & Informatics             Fax:   +44(0)29 2087 4598
Cardiff University                   Email: mailto:ralph at cs.cf.ac.uk
5 The Parade, Roath                  WWW:  http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/
Cardiff, CF24 3AA, UK     VOIP: sip:17476235487 at proxy01.sipphone.com

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:41:30 -0400
From: "M. Tamer Özsu" <ozsut at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <B2EC27D2-7941-4B7D-9938-E8FB4C1D29BC at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Sorry, that should be 6G version (not 6GB).

==Tamer

On 2011-06-24, at 11:35 AM, M. Tamer Özsu wrote:

> OWC has a 6GB version of the SSD that does support TRIM (although it is more expensive).
> 
> I have no relationship with OWC other than being a happy customer.
> 
> ==Tamer
> 
> On 2011-06-24, at 10:57 AM, Peter Dyballa wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Am 24.06.2011 um 16:13 schrieb M. Tamer Özsu:
>> 
>>> there are cheaper SSD alternatives
>> 
>> 
>> This might be true. And it might be also true that these don't support the TRIM command (which Lion will use) and finally make the OS search endlessly for some left-over blocks in disk to save the large PDF output. (Ever encountered when your set-top box with disk recording reaches the state of almost no disk space left?)

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:47:18 -0400
From: Alain Schremmer <schremmer.alain at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <37B65828-7D4D-47E7-86CA-A32E19B62169 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

On Jun 24, 2011, at 10:06 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:

>
> On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:
>
>> On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
>>
>>> I think 4GB of RAM is fine.
>>
>> Ah the good old days!
>>
>> (Of the 128K)
>>
>> Best regards
>> --schremmer
>
> Howdy,
>
> And the constant swapping of the floppies! :-P

Yes, and that's how we got all that exercise. Now we got to go to the  
gym!
Best regards
--schremmer

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:39:05 -0500
From: Herbert Schulz <herbs at wideopenwest.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <D9220CA8-BCF1-4E74-9112-654B3E058184 at wideopenwest.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Jun 24, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:

> 
> On Jun 24, 2011, at 10:06 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I think 4GB of RAM is fine.
>>> 
>>> Ah the good old days!
>>> 
>>> (Of the 128K)
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> --schremmer
>> 
>> Howdy,
>> 
>> And the constant swapping of the floppies! :-P
> 
> Yes, and that's how we got all that exercise. Now we got to go to the gym!
> Best regards
> --schremmer

Howdy,

Oh, yes... and 300 baud modems with dial-up of BBSs (pre-internet unless you were at a large University).

Good Luck,

Herb Schulz
(herbs at wideopenwest dot com)

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:16:39 -0400
From: Alain Schremmer <schremmer.alain at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OS X TeX] New Laptop...
To: TeX on Mac OS X Mailing List <macosx-tex at email.esm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <207F4751-CBA4-46CE-8253-A20606E8394C at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

On Jun 24, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Herbert Schulz wrote:

>
> On Jun 24, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2011, at 10:06 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Alain Schremmer wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 24, 2011, at 9:18 AM, Herbert Schulz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think 4GB of RAM is fine.
>>>>
>>>> Ah the good old days!
>>>>
>>>> (Of the 128K)
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> --schremmer
>>>
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> And the constant swapping of the floppies! :-P
>>
>> Yes, and that's how we got all that exercise. Now we got to go to  
>> the gym!
>> Best regards
>> --schremmer
>
> Howdy,
>
> Oh, yes... and 300 baud modems with dial-up of BBSs (pre-internet  
> unless you were at a large University).

Ever read "The Good Old Days--They Were Terrible!"?

Best regards
--schremmer

------------------------------

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